LondonSkaters Speed Team - Speed Skating & Rollerblading Club in London

lemming · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 693 Location: Reading, UK

OK, they're not related.

1. Like many (all?) skaters I have a strong side for crossing over, and a weak one. In my X-Max, it's easy (ish) either way, but when I've got my Belotti Gammas on, crossing over one way I keep hitting the front and back wheels. So, the question is this: do people tend to move the crossing over foot OVER the weighted foot, or do you move it in front?

2. Socks. We all know to wear thin socks (hopefully), but how much power do you actually lose if you wear thicker socks?? Has there been any analysis of this? More out of curiosity than anything else.

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Always move it round the front. If you are clipping wheels it means you are not bending your inside leg enough.

I have no idea about socks and power. Socks and edge control though. Socks, like soft liners will compress as you skate in them which will make your boots more loose after a while so you will need to tighten your boots after maybe 10 minutes use unless your socks are very thin. The thicker the sock the more they will compress so the more you will need to tighten and you may need to tighten twice.

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

Some people teach over, some teach around. In any event, there's always some element of both over and around involved, so just more practice in moving the foot *enough* is probably better.

A good drill is to do slowed down crossovers where you lift the normal push skate to cross it over, tap the underpushing skate with it, then lift it around and over. That will build balance and control, and will help you to learn the size of your skates.

Socks, I doubt the power issue will make much difference to most of us here. I prefer thinner ones because I feel more in control, less squidgy. Certainly rec skates feel very imprecise to me compared with my carbon boots.

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Watch videos of the best skaters in action on bends in races. That is what you should be trying to emulate. Don't just look at the crossing skate. Look at fall, inside knee bend and extension, hips, shoulders and arm movement, even head position.

If you see any of them lifting their outside skate over their inside one then I would be quite surprised, unless they are being overtaken as it generally means they are off balance. At Adrian Wordsworth's session at Tatem we had a discussion about it at the end. Lifting feet is something you should try to minimise for both crossing over and straight line skating.

However, lifting and exaggeration is a good training exercise because, as Mike suggests with his balance and control line, it helps you to feel the inside skate which is at least, if not more important than the outside skate in a crossover. It's just not something to should consider to be good technique.

lemming · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 693 Location: Reading, UK

Cool, so round the front.

I'll practice next time I'm on them. Will be in my XMax tonight due to stopping issues...

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

Having just spoken to Bill Begg, both Rick and myself would be this: WRONG.

It is categorically over the top, which is also what Eddy teachees.

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

Oh, Rick, you remember that bit where you were telling us to turn our shoulders into the turn on crossovers because of what Malcolm told you? Adrian Wordsworth was one of the skaters there contradicting that.

Just in case there's any confusion, on inlines for speed it's categorically wrong to turn your shoulders into the turn.

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Malcolm told me no such thing. It was an old school mate of Leo Eason's that taught me that. And when we talked it through with other people we realised we were talking something very similar but from a different perspective.

As for cross-overs here is what I am talking about:
http://www.nettracing.com/video.htm
check the mens 20k. Chad Hedrick, Eddy Matzger and everyone else all crossing over front the front of their inside skate. Don't don't how you phrased the question to Bill Begg....Do you pick it up or roll it round may be what he understood. Of course you pick it up but you NEVER cross it over the top of your inside skate.

Of course that video is from 1998. Everything might have changed since then. Rolling Eyes

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Been researching the full mechanics of this for various types of crossover and changing the timing a bit. Here are my finding:

Assuming that everything else is good in your crossover, one thing I have found that would make you cross over the skate rather than round it is the timing of your crossover with respect to your underpush. The later you cross your skates the more likely you will have to lift your skate over the inside skate as your leg will be straighter from the pushing and the skate will need to be crossed. I don't know if you can imagine this but try it out and see.

In a series of crossovers you shouldn't be crossing late if you are turning, as the irregular timing of your steps will stop you from pushing as much as you can with regular timing. However, if you are doing one quick crossover utilising a powerful underpush or doing some running crossovers to accelerate in a line or up a hill then you will be crossing over the skate and not round it.

That's about as much as I can concede on this one.

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

On the one hand Rick's opinion, and on the other Eddy and Bill's. Now which to choose...

dan_b · Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 2428

I assume the goal is simply to be as efficient as possible, and "over" means raising the boot higher whereas "around" probably means keeping it off the floor longer (because it's a less direct path). So it's a question of whether the relevant muscles are happier bringing your leg up further or keeping it up for longer.

That said, and I'm having trouble visualising this at all so may be completely wrong, it seems that if my underpush is going out along the ray (i.e. perpendicular to the tangent at that part of the turn) to get a decent heel carve, then the recovering leg has to go quite a long way forward to clear it - so the extra fore/aft motion would make balance slightly more effort; also that the setdown would be with the foot going backwards whereas the usual classic stride advice on the straight is to push forwards with the setting-down foot to help make sure it lands pointing ahead.

Can't think of many other theoretical arguments one way or the other. But then, I'm not a sports coach or a physiologist

Tom · Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 482 Location: Holland Park

I remember eddie telling us on this years workshop that it really didn't matter, just do what feels comfortable.

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Check the videos, Mike. I've downloaded quite a few of racing videos now and nobody has stepped over their skate yet. Please point me to a video of just one good speed skater doing it. If you think any of these do then point it out. There's a couple of high lifters but they don't step over as their knees would get in the way.

http://www.skatetrix.ch/Visuals/Clip-Download_index.html

Dan, don't get confused with round the front, the skate does not describe an arc around the inside skate. It travels in a straight line across the path of the inside skate. The inside skate just shouldn't be in the way if you are skating properly, ie knee bent. Your legs should stop you from being able to cross over at any point that would cause your skates to touch. Try it. Because it is going straight and doesn't need to be lifted over the inside skate, the lowest amount of effort is to lift it less, you'll get the feeling for how much with practice. The objective is to just miss the ground with the crossing skate. Any more lifting is theoretically wasted effort, any less and you drag the skate across while on the outside edge of the other skate and risk a stack unless you point it inward and drive it forward. In practice aim to miss the ground by about 1 centimetre.

MOD - edited for language

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

I don't think your argument is with me Rick.

greazer · Joined: 07 Oct 2004 Posts: 330 Location: Haarlem

Hi guys,

Just been watching the Chad Hedrick "PUSH" DVD again. Paused it about 50 times, so I'm sure about this:

He does both the "swing around" and "lifting backwheel over frontwheel" crossovers. In fact he uses both in one corner.

It all depends on the how tight and grippy (fast) the turn is. He is on 5x84 there, on 5x90 you get a few more "wheel over wheel" corners simply because the skates are longer and harder to "swing around". (from my own experience)

You should "swing around" if you have enough time to do so.
You should never lift over your boot, which I don't think is possible anyway...

I hope all this makes sense!

Cheers,
Andy.