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merten
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 1359
Location: Hamburg, N. Germany
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 Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: |
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Interesting point Fred! I am usually very easy at reaching my HRmax with skating or spinning classes. Also for me the 220 - age does not work, I max out about 200bpm currently.
So for me it seems I could still invest in a bit more endurance, since I do not think that technique is what currently limits me.
Regarding the use of an HRM in general, I have done it more some time back, and using it has improved my ability to "listen" into my body, so I can better judge my excercise level without checking the watch. |
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Barrie
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 1338
Location: Putney
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:44 pm Subject: |
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Fred, have you set those zones based on running max HR or skating max HR?
I think skating max HR is going to be tricky to get due to technique changes with speed and circumstance, i.e. straight line sprint or circuit with crossovers? full, driven arm swing or no arm swing?
Got to compare like for like...
e.g. set max HR while sprinting with full arms swing in a straight line.
Say Max HR = 200bpm.
Say Resting HR = 50bpm
:. Working Range = 150bpm
70% = 105 + 50 = 155bpm
80% = 120 + 50 = 170bpm
But that's assuming full, driven armswing... trying to maintain that without the arm swing means driving your legs disproportionately harder....
But trying to get skating Max HR without arm swing is gonna be really weird 
Maybe it would be better to work out the working zones empirically... Realistically, as Merten said, you do know how hard you're working... ( i.e. if you know what 70-80% feels like when running and cycling, you know what it feels like when skating too ). |
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diego
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 405
Location: W2
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: |
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| Barrie wrote: |
| From what I've read before, max HR various depending on what you're doing. |
I would disagree with this particular bit...
max HR is, well, just the maximum rate your heart can reach.
it doesn't depend on what you're doing, when or how, it's just the limit nature put on your HR (therefore it varies from person to person and generally speaking decreases with age)
now, if we're talking about what's the HR you can reach doing different sports or activities and how long you can sustain it, I'd say that it's a different thing. |
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Barrie
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 1338
Location: Putney
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:59 pm Subject: |
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I'd say that's a question of context.
Obviously there is a absolute maximum...
... but earlier you said you can work it out on a turbo trainer...
All other things being equal, you will go higher while running than on the turbo trainer ( apparently about 5 to 10 bpm higher ).
For 50bpm rest rate :-
190bpm max => 70% = 148bpm, 80% = 162bpm
200bpm max => 70% = 155bpm, 80% = 170bpm
So you plug in your 200bpm running max, work out 80% is 170bpm.
Then you go do that on a bike... and you're well out of your leg muscles' aerobic zone ( they don't know what your heart rate is, just how much work they're doing ), nicely burning glucogen(sp?) and getting swamped in lactic acid...
Just peek at the first few finds here :-
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=max+hr+for+different+sports&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=max+hr+for+different+sports&fp=11a84a1956d1a399 |
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diego
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 405
Location: W2
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: |
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I really don't want to start an endless dispute here, honest!
However, just for the sake of clarity, I did say that you can work it out on a turbo trained, but I didn't say that you can reach it on a turbo trainer, nor that you'd have higher HR values on a bike.
The Conconi test will not bring you to your maximum HR, will give you a precise set of steps to follow in order to reach a HR you can use to calculate your maximum HR.
That is the only "max HR" I know, all the rest is variable (you don't have the same "running max" in two different days, as it varies with environmental and subjective factors)
Picking the second result from the link you posted: http://www.howtobefit.com/determine-maximum-heart-rate.htm
that shows how many misconceptions there are out there (e.g. it says that max HR "does not decline with age", while the general formula [that we're not accepting anyway] suggest that it does - and I actually thought it did, so I am confused anyway)
as I posted previously, I am not an expert in zone training, but IMHO the zones are defined based on the max HR and are common to all sports
WRT your example (i.e. aerobic zone on a turbo or running), I don't think you have a point there.
If you find your aerobic zone being around 170bpm, then that's it.
If you're more trained than me as a runner and we have the same zones profile (same max HR), then you'd be running 10mph at 170bpm while I'd be running 7mph at 170bpm, but we'd be both in our aerobic zone.
Then we go on a bike and stick to 170bpm (remember we have the same max HR, thus the same zones profile) and, say, I am more trained than you on a bike...
Then I'll be doing 18mph and you'll be doing 16mph, but again we'd be in our aerobic zone.
As you said, your legs just know how much work they're doing, but your HR is affected by that and changes accordingly, therefore if you're working so hard that your legs are producing lactic acid, your HR will increase immediately.
ps. obviously, I can be wrong and I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion somehow... happy to learn from others  |
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Barrie
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 1338
Location: Putney
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:18 pm Subject: |
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I've not heard of the conconi test before...
Wikipedia :-
"The Conconi Test is a sports medicine test[1] intended to measure an individual's maximum anaerobic and aerobic threshold heart rates."
So you just plot heart rate against speed and analyse it to deduce the aerobic and anaerobic heart rates.
If so then these results will vary depending on the activity done when it was measured.
( It also seems that this test is a bit questionable, but that's irrelevant to this discussion ).
| diego wrote: |
| If you find your aerobic zone being around 170bpm, then that's it. |
As I understand it I think not because you're not taking in to account how hard you're pushing individual muscles in the different activities, which is where the aerobic/anaerobic part comes in...
I.e. in the context of a training tool it's not (just) about how hard your heart is working.
In one sport you might be using 10 major muscles all at the bottom of their aerobic zone to achieve 170bpm, or in another sport only 2 of those 10 major muscles, in the latter case you must be working those muscles harder, and therefore pushing them much more towards, or even in to, their anaerobic zone.
There's no point trying to train at what you think is an aerobic heart rate range, if in fact you're pushing key muscles well in to their anaerobic zone.
You just wont be able to finish the exercise.
So either you have to take a max bpm for each activity, or you adjust the percentages at which you define your training zones ( e.g. 70% for running = 65% for cycling = 60% for swimming ) |
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ed!
Committee Member
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 4168
Location: E R, London
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:53 pm Subject: |
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Ta muchly. |
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george
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 567
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:30 pm Subject: |
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| ed! wrote: |
So do people actively use HRMs then? If so, how do use it for:
- Training
- Racing (if at all)
All this talk is getting me thinking that maybe I should get back into the habit of using mine to ensure that I'm maximising my efforts when training / racing. |
hi Ed, FYI, all of my training (other than weight-workouts) is heart-rate based. So for all running, cycling, skating sessions I train with heart-rate aims regardless whether i am doing endurance or interval sessions.
For example, skate 60 min @ 65% with 1 min @ 80% every 12 minutes. or 4x15 min @ 75% etc etc
During racing I also use the heart rate to check whether i am pushing too little/not enough (particularly at Le Mans, less so during marathons).
Because i rely on the heart-rate i can forget about what speed i am doing. This allows me to stay focused during training regardless whether i am tired in one session and energetic the next - this would be more difficult if i was focusing on speed or distance. Over time you should end up skating faster and/or longer at each given heart rate.
I am not sure why this training approach works, but it certainly works for me. I am happy to rely on Riz' knowledge in this area (she writes all my programs). |
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Rick
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 5888
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:18 pm Subject: |
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| ed! wrote: |
So do people actively use HRMs then? If so, how do use it for:
- Training
- Racing (if at all)
All this talk is getting me thinking that maybe I should get back into the habit of using mine to ensure that I'm maximising my efforts when training / racing. |
Don't race with one any more. What your heart can handle will vary depending on your condition. It is useful for training is you want to stay in a particular range especially when combined with timing a fixed distance to see if you can do it faster as you get fitter, or as your technique gets better, but in a race you do what is necessary and an HRM is no more use than the stopwatch it has in it. It might be interesting to look back at your info if you download it but a cheap one probably won't have that capability is that analysis important for most of our levels> I would suggest not.
If you know what the sensation of a tired heart working to the point of inefficiency feels like then that will be the same feeling regardless of your overall condition and that sensation is your pointer to working out if you are going to burn out or keep going and even if you have a bit more to give in the heart department |
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ed!
Committee Member
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 4168
Location: E R, London
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:34 am Subject: |
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| george wrote: |
| During racing I also use the heart rate to check whether i am pushing too little/not enough (particularly at Le Mans, less so during marathons). |
That's the bit I'm mainly interested in. As you say, your method works for you and your specific goals, and that's great.
What you and Rick steer towards is that you use it less so when marathon racing - especially the "in a race you do what is necessary", which is very true.
However, a lot of the time, I do ask myself "should I be in this paceline", whether it's should I be going at a faster / slower rate. One example is at Goodwood last year I hung on to the front paceline for as long as I could, but in hindsight perhaps I should have dropped off earlier and stay with a line I knew I could manage. At the time, I thought I was alright, but in actual fact, I was very much borderline before I realised it was a bit too much. |
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george
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 567
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:16 am Subject: |
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| ed! wrote: |
| george wrote: |
| During racing I also use the heart rate to check whether i am pushing too little/not enough (particularly at Le Mans, less so during marathons). |
That's the bit I'm mainly interested in. As you say, your method works for you and your specific goals, and that's great.
What you and Rick steer towards is that you use it less so when marathon racing - especially the "in a race you do what is necessary", which is very true.
However, a lot of the time, I do ask myself "should I be in this paceline", whether it's should I be going at a faster / slower rate. One example is at Goodwood last year I hung on to the front paceline for as long as I could, but in hindsight perhaps I should have dropped off earlier and stay with a line I knew I could manage. At the time, I thought I was alright, but in actual fact, I was very much borderline before I realised it was a bit too much. |
Yes you would should be able to use the HRM for this purpose. Bear in mind that as the marathon time will go for say 1hr30 or less, you should expect to be hitting high up in your heart range for most of the time in any case but the HRM will still give you objective data to work with.
For example let's say you are skating at 80-85% of your max heart rate - this could be maintained for a marathon duration. So if you are on a paceline and feel like you are pushing, but are at 80-85% then you keep going. However if you are sitting on 90-95% then you can expect to suffer later on in the race, so you may want to drop back. In the Goodwood 2008 100k race i did exactly that. After about 15 laps i was skating with James Ashby and his buddy Mike for 3-4 laps and then realised how high my heart rate was, so i decided to let go.
Something else to bear in mind is the impact of race conditions and particularly adrenaline on your heart rate. During a race the heart rate is often much higher than what you could maintain during training. In Le Mans last year I averaged 184bpm (close to 90%) for each of my first three 1hr shifts - i could never do that during training.
So I am learning all of these things just by using HRM.
(I am basing these figures on my experience, but i realise that the% figures may be a bit different for each person, however the principle should apply regardless.) |
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Rick
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 5888
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:52 am Subject: |
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| Wow 184 is 90% for you. That is pretty high. My 100% is no more than about 180 these days. Though my maximum sustainable varies. I remember the exact moment when I realised that looking at the numbers was pointless unless your heart is at a fixed fitness level. I wore one for 4 out of 5 consecutive weekends. The first weekend we were high speed cruising the Voie Verte south of Dijon (44km) and I was averaging 173/174 and my heart got extremely tired. So tied that it did not recover for the race the next day and three days after that. 2 weeks late I was in Berlin and my "resting" pulse was at 104 at the start line and I went up to 177 and felt tired in the heart and knew I was going to have to drop off the paceline. Next weekend I was in Vienna at their race. Heart never got that high there as it was a battle against dehydration in a race that started at noon and I was conserving energy. The following weekend, I was in Cologne and I averaged 177/178 for the whole marathon and my heart did not get tired. The heart is a muscle and it had been trained up. If I had relied on the numbers from earlier I would have stepped off the pace but the numbers were only relevant whan my heart was less fit. If that can happen in the space of 4 weeks then frankly bpm numbers are irrelevant to performance unless you can sustain your heart at peak. The sensation of a tired heart is the thing that was consistent. I have not raced with a monitor since and my performances have been way better. |
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dan_b
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 2417
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:34 pm Subject: |
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Some people now recommend training using zones based around the AT or LT (anaerobic threshold/lactate threshold) a - this is the work rate at which you are on the verge of anaerobic, or where the lactate starts building up. Still needs an HRM, though: if you measure your LT at (say) 175bpm, you'll need to be able to tell when you get to 80% or 60% or 110% of that figure
It sounds sensible but the definition of AT (do a 30 minute time trial, measure average HR during the last 20 minutes) is a bit circular in that it already requires you to know what pace you can sustain for 30 minutes. But it does change with fitness |
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