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Rick
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 5914
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 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:10 am Subject: |
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The "claim your lane" bit isn't always valid for cyclists either. If there is nobody behind you or you are able to move at the speed of traffic then fine if not then the "keep left while not overtaking" rule applies so you stay to the left of your lane while moving you can still stay out far enough to avoid potential problems on the side of the road such as drains and a line of parked vehicles. If there is a vehicle behind you then the problem of not being seen by other road users wanting to use your intended path doesn't really apply as they will see the vehicle behind you. You use the vehicle's presence to assert the space in front and hope the person behind gives you enough room to do whatever you may need to do.
May sound complicated but it should be instinctive is you are a safe and considerate road user.
The best piece of advice I can give is to assume that you haven't been seen unless you make eye contact then you can be ready to brake and/or maneouvre.
A lot of car drivers coming up to side roads poke out over the line before they even look to see if it is clear. That is a dangerous time for cyclists travelling straight on the main road in busy traffic and is why you should move out a bit more if you can. I feel more comfortable when this happens if I am on skates, as I need less space between me and the vehicles around me than I would on a bike as steering space requirement on a bike is much greater and I can easily drift sideways on skates. It's also easier to bail onto someone's bonnet on skates if you can't avoid a collision from there being insufficient space to your right. |
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Michi
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 658
Location: Hamburg
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:48 am Subject: |
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| brandbarth wrote: |
| Cycle like that in germany and you will be eaten alive. |
1 correct answer (and that was with Merten's help) 
What I learned from this: I will never, never cycle in Britain! |
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Mikey-two-Names
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 4107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:37 pm Subject: |
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I'm not sure that's the right way to think about the problem, Michi. It turns out that cycle paths have approximately three times the number of accidents that normal on road and part of the traffic cycling has. Since (and thankfully so) there are few cycle lanes in Britain, and they are poor, this quiz is great at making people think about how to cycle as part of the traffic.
On the road is where I prefer to cycle, it's much safer and faster, you get less punctures, and there are many more reasons besides. Cycles are after all still vehicles and have the right to use the roads, it's where we should be cycling for the most part, not separated out into some bicycle bantustan wilderness.
Drivers in the UK certainly could be a lot more tolerant of cyclists than they are, but that's also largely because cycling isn't so common here. More cyclists and more cycle journeys is what makes it safer for everyone, skaters too. |
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Mikey-two-Names
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 4107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:54 pm Subject: |
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Here you go:
| Quote: |
Verkehrsunfälle mit Radfahrern
Der Polizeipräsident in Berlin. Berlin Police, Germany, 1987.
Berlin Police study 1981 to 1985.
Cyclists 4 times more likely to have accident on roads with cycle paths. Likelihood of serious or fatal injury similarly increased.
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http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/infra/research.html |
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Rick
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 5914
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:46 pm Subject: |
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| ls_mike wrote: |
| More cyclists and more cycle journeys is what makes it safer for everyone, skaters too. |
Very true, but ask BigSteev about crossing the road in Shangahi. |
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Mikey-two-Names
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 4107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:07 pm Subject: |
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| LOL!!!! |
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merten
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 1376
Location: Hamburg, N. Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:13 pm Subject: |
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| ls_mike wrote: |
| I'm not sure that's the right way to think about the problem, Michi. |
 I guess Michi was joking here... so don't take that too seriously.
You're probably right about more accidents on cycling paths, but all studies have their flaws. Most streets with paths are inside cities with LOADS of junctions; of course there are more accidents because drivers don't pay attention... I'm not convinced not having those lanes would change it that much. Also, German cycling lanes are usually better built (part of the sidewalk, not painted on the road) than the ones I saw in London, no offense 
AND remember skaters are pedestrians by law in Germany - not that I usually obey that rule |
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Michi
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 658
Location: Hamburg
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:22 pm Subject: |
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| merten wrote: |
| I guess Michi was joking here... so don't take that too seriously. |
Yes, I definetely was joking. But you know Mike, having grown up 23 years with cycling NOT on the road it is a little bit difficult for me to change my mind.
Additionally: when you drive on the road in Germany when a bike-track is available, the cars will give you a REALLY bad time...
Cheers Michi |
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Mikey-two-Names
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 4107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:17 pm Subject: |
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| merten wrote: |
| You're probably right about more accidents on cycling paths, but all studies have their flaws. Most streets with paths are inside cities with LOADS of junctions; of course there are more accidents because drivers don't pay attention... I'm not convinced not having those lanes would change it that much. |
That's exactly why cycle lanes are so dangerous. They create a much more complex junction with more "joints" that car drivers forget to give way at, or even care about. Accidents happen mostly at junctions, only a very small percentage of cycle crashes involve being struck by a vehicle from behind. Funnily enough this is what people fear most, unreasonably so.
In this case there's very little doubt, I wouldn't go placing any hope in flawed studies, cycle lanes are actively a bad thing for cyclists. It is simply this: The Wrong Strategy. |
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Mikey-two-Names
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 4107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:20 pm Subject: |
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| Michi wrote: |
But you know Mike, having grown up 23 years with cycling NOT on the road it is a little bit difficult for me to change my mind.
Additionally: when you drive on the road in Germany when a bike-track is available, the cars will give you a REALLY bad time... |
Well quite, I sympathise. One has to work with the system in place, which is what Cyclecraft is all about. Hence my "thankfully" comment, in that we in the UK are not legally obliged to use cycle paths. |
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KarineM
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 40
Location: Paris (No longer Lille)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:21 pm Subject: |
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Ooh er. I better put my bike away 
I only got 4 and I thought I was giving them what they wanted, not really what I do 
Anyway you can't cycle in bike lanes there are always white vans parked in them or people walking along them 
I haven't checked out the explanation yet. I promise I'll read it. 
But that makes me think of a question. What is the status of a skater over there? Pedestrian like France (no more rights to skate in the road than to walk in it), or néo-bike like in Belgium?
Ah Belgium, biking and skating heaven. Cars leave you enough space and don't bib. Shame the roads are crap |
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dan_b
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 2428
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:22 pm Subject: |
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| KarineM wrote: |
But that makes me think of a question. What is the status of a skater over there? Pedestrian like France (no more rights to skate in the road than to walk in it), or néo-bike like in Belgium? |
Neither: pedestrian like in England, where you have a legal right to pass and re-pass along the Queen's Highway.
You could in principle be done for obstruction, but you'd have to be obstructing something and if you're moving at approximately bicycle speeds that's demonstrably untrue. |
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