LondonSkaters Speed Team - Speed Skating & Rollerblading Club in London

Natasha · Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 2973 Location: Basingstoke

I have split this thread off from the generic thread about BRSF level 2 courses. Please discuss ICP/BRSF mapping on here, if you're interested in level 2 courses, see the other thread.

Linda J · Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 210

Would be very interested if it ran again on different dates. I'm likely to be away those dates.

Where does this stand along ICP?

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

It goes much deeper into theory and lighter on the practice side than ICP level 1 as you can't learn much in an afternoon. Theoretically if you wanted to teach in a school or some such then it would be a necessity to have it as it is the only UK recognised coaching scheme and with small conversions can be used to teach many other sports at a basic level. I am only going for it as a stepping stone to a level 3 FISS qualification. It will give me a good rounding in coaching in general but probably won't really teach me much about skate instruction. Level 3 is where it is at at which point I can develop my own marathon racing coaching programme.

Previously there was talk of dropping the skate specific stuff for people with ICP level 1 and perhaps just giving them a brief assessment but when the course ran before with that in mind some of the ICP people were apparently rather substandard so there may be repetition for those who are ICP. Howeverm it may give you another insight. Can't really say as I haven't done it yet and I never bothered to do ICP though I did read the corriculum for it some years ago.

Tortoise · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 22 Location: Southport

Some people were asking how the BRSF Level 2 sits with ICP.
BRSF Level 2 and ICP 2 are almost the same, except ICP2 need to also take the two Sports Coach UK modules :

How to coach Children in Sport
How to coach people with disabilites in sport

Then if ICP instructors end their certification to us at Southport YMCA. 81 Hoghton St, Southport, Merseyside, PR9 0PR with a fee of £2.50, we will issue a BRSF Level 2.

Sorry ICP 1 doesn't count. Does that make sense?

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

Tortoise · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 22 Location: Southport

Yes BRSF offer Accreditation for Prior Learning to ICP2 instructors provided it's attained within the past 3 years. If you send copies of all your certificates and a cheque for £2.50 we can issue a BRSF certificate and put you onto the coaching database.

Alan Moore will tell you exactly what time those modules are on, or I think it is on the BRSF website.

http://www.brsf.co.uk/Coaching.htm

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Apparently there are still some concerns over this equivalence thing that neither Alan nor I understand at the moment.

Form other communications I understand that the agreement to state that certain parts of the Sports Coach UK modules are not required was made between Asha and ICP UK representative and Dave Nicholls (president of BRSF)

From whan I can tell it is not for BRSF to state that ICP level 2 and BRSF level 2 have equivalence for the Sports Coach UK modules. That would have to be something for Sport UK or Sport England to do as they are non-sport specific and are taught by a representative from Sport England not by the BRSF and can only be certified by them.

BRSF can only accept the skating part as being equivalent and that is frankly only a small part of this course.

Jill, can you state where this information comes from within Sport UK/England or how Dave has the authority to give any such assurance to Asha? i.e. is he a Sport UK representative now?

Until this is made clear with some sort of confirmation from Sport England either directly or through reproduction then I would be sceptical that any offer of equivalence from BRSF has any weight for these modules.

Not too concerned from a general skating point of view as BRSF can perhaps certify people but it someone wanted to coach in other sports or even coach skating in schools they would have to show their SCUK accreditation not just their BRSF one and probably give their CRB check number too. Just something anyone thinking of short-cutting the course might like to think about if they are intending to use the course to get an accreditation that they are going to use in the next 3 years. You can self study to fill these in if the equivalence is not accepted by SCUK but it would be a shame to do that when you can simply do it all next month and have it out of the way.

Tortoise · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 22 Location: Southport

The answer to that one is long and complex and probably better explained verbally.

The body governing coach education in the UK is Sports Coach Uk. Sport England govern Community Sport and have little direct influence over coaching quailifications and UK Sport govern High performance sport.

Sports Coach UK developed the UKCC. BRSF L2 has been developed to fall in line with this. As a relatively new governing body we have done it right from the start. John did a good job. As part of the process of meeting the requirements of the UKCC we have to utilise professionally qualified tutors, assessors and verifiers. Dave has these qualifications. That allows him to make those decisions on behalf of BRSF. Long term we need an army of people who can do this and anyone interested should look at 1st4sport on how to get qualified or make themselves known as BRSF needs them!

As a result of implementing protocols such as prior learning we became a phase 2 NGB for UKCC a few months ago. Well done BRSF!

I hope these links help explain.

http://www.ukcoachingcertificate.org/images/Workforce%20Development%20Guidance%20-Sept%2006.pdf

http://www.1st4sportqualifications.com/

If it still doesn't make sense give me a call and at I'll try and explain further.

Linda J · Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 210

Okay, my five eggs:

I've gone out and investigated this because I happen to have a specific interest in coaching, since I am a full time inline-skate instuctor and wish to coach at a higher level also. I'm also about to embark on a course to become a personal trainer and fitness instructor which is an intensive three month full time course. Therefore I had a look and started to wonder whether I should be doing this type of course instead/aswell.

I dont know what you lot are looking for in all this but I dont think that this course is not going to help your speed training or understanding. As for teaching, it is non sport specific and seems from what I understand is the kind of thing aimed at qualifying low level teachers to teach basic skills for example in a school. ICP level 1 or 2 are far more specific and aimed directly at teaching inline-skating skills than anything that any other body has to offer.

From what I understand this BRSF course is probably equivalent to an ICP level 1 (not 2) and has really nothing to do with high level training - which is what I imagine you are all looking for in this? Even at the point where this qualification route becomes more sport specific (and that part seems to have not actually even been designed yet) it is first in roller skating in general (including quad, aggro, artistic and skateboarding) rather than in speedskating.

Rick · Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 5914

Now you are into an area that I do already fully understand and is probably already posted on here somewhere. To clear it up, you are part right and part wrong. This is BRSF level 2. The skating section is barely even ICP 1. Frankly I doubt it does much more than Skate Patrol though I haven't done it yet so I can't comment on that part. That is the level 2 part of the course. The "level 1" part of this course is the 5 compulsory non-sport specfic coaching sections.

As you allude to, these two weekends are not speedskating specific. However, the attainment of level 2 is a pre-requisite for getting level 3 which does exist for speed-skating. That is not BRSF level 3 as no such thing exists. It is FISS level 3 in our case.

There are at least 3 people qualified to train FISS level 3. One of them is Adrian. Actually much of that existed before the level 2 stuff as it was first developed as a need for coaching standards in our sport. The Sports Coach UK came along and it was agreed to amend it to fit in with the national coaching structure and split into level 2 (general skating - i.e. beginners) and level 3 (speedskating) there are or are being developed other level 3 courses for other disciplines, eg NHRA, BIPHA, FARS, etc.

Once you have attained BRSF L2 you can go on to L3 in as many other disciplines as you like without having to retake L2. If you want to coach other sports then you need to do the L2 part for each sport but you would not need to do the 5 compulsories again.

It all follows a very logical and structured pattern. Should you want to do the level 3 without having attained L2 or an equivalent certification you may be not be allowed to take L3 you won't get a certificate saying you are qualified.

Certfications can lapse if they are not renewed in which case they may need to be taken again.

Going down this route is the most practical way for me to become a recognised speed skating coach, it is not an instant thing as I probably can't do L3 until next year. However, my plans are longer term. I am just about to embark on my 20 month training plan for Le Mans 2009. I don't intend to be doing much coaching until after that.

Other people should look at why they want to do the course. Even if you don't want to coach then you should still get some other insights from the course. It will also be a benefit to the club to have more qualifies coaches who can work as a team to develop a more structured coaching programme for the club. Something which we have been lacking. Once we have coaches and CRB checks done we can have more junior skaters come along and that could transform the club. Everything should be seen as a stepping stone to some longer term goal. So it's not for you then, Linda. Thanks for sharing but there is no point dissing it to others when you haven't actually done it.

Mikey-two-Names · Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 4107

Nice reply Rick, that was basically my understanding too.

ICP is *very* skating specific, for base skating skills that can then be applied to nearly every more specialised discipline.

Linda J · Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 210

dan_b · Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 2428

Tortoise · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 22 Location: Southport

I understand the skillls in the practical element that BRSF level 2 coaches can teach (Skate Smart) are pretty much the same as ICP2. ICP1 does not cover as many skills as BRSF 2.

However the emphsais in ICP is with technical ways of teaching skills, whereas with BRSF and the UKCC assessment checklists are more about your skills to coach i.e communication, managing groups of children, learning styles, giving corrective feedback, health and safety, child protection, ethics and professionalism which are all industry standards at level 2.

I hope that makes sense, but don't be afraid to ask if not.

Natasha · Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 2973 Location: Basingstoke

For all you ICP level 2 coaches out there, I am told that your qualification will map over to the level 2 BRSF providing you pass the following Sports Coach UK modules:-

1. How To Coach Children In Sport
2. How To Coach Disabled People In Sport

I’m having a lot of trouble tracking down times and a venue for the first one, but dates and London venues for the How To Coach Disabled People In Sport workshop are below.

PRO-ACTIVE North London
28th February 2008 18.30 – 20.30
Middlesex University, Enfield Campus

PRO-ACTIVE South London
26th February
2008 18.30 – 20.30 Kingston College (Main Site)

PRO-ACTIVE West London
6th March 2008 18.30 – 20.30 Hillingdon Civic Centre
For more info, go to Pro-Active London

London Borough of Newham, Credon Centre, Newham
19th March 2008, 18:00. I have a phone number for them.

Other, fairly cheap courses are available, for first aid and other aspects of coach development, try for example, a local County Sports Partnership